Lowther on the USAF Orion Space Battleship
"the USAF designs, at least what is available
on them, indicate even LARGER craft were under study, from 87 to 130
feet 26.5 to 39.6 meter) in diameter, which would have had even greater
performance. From what I can tell, these larger craft were the ones that
Ted Taylor referred to as a "space battelship." "
Spot the Orion
« Thread Started on Sept 8, 2005, 5:51am »
Theres a 12-meter Orion (strategic weapon version) on this page...
Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #1 on Sept 8, 2005, 8:44am »
Got it.
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #2 on Sept 8, 2005, 4:06pm »
I got it too. Interesting. Also--what does "strategic weapon version" mean? Does this have anything to do with the Air Force's attempt to save the project by using it as a weapons delivery system, etc.? A long answer would be preferred over a short one.
The secret of victory: "Get there fustest with the mostest" Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest, CSA
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #3 on Sept 8, 2005, 6:00pm »
Sept 8, 2005, 4:06pm, makikomi wrote:
what does "strategic weapon version" mean? .... A long answer would be preferred over a short one.
The long answer.... will be given in the book (possibly sooner if'n I decide to seel the "Space Bombers" section separately).
The short answer: seven 156" solid rockets loft a 12-meter Orion, which boosts itself to LEO, and then to a LEO/100,000 n.m transfer orbit, and then to a 100,000 n.m. circular orbit, where it sits until the Soviets get uppity. At which point it either launches weapons from that distance and serves as an unreachable launch platform, or boosts itself to hyperbolic flyby past the Russkies and drops several boomers worth or ordnance, zips back to cislunar space, and then turns around and does it again if needed. Crew of something like 20, bored off their asses for months on end. :P
Also considered: an 8-meter Orion that would sit in a silo until WWIII breaks out, at which point it would be lofted to space where it would serve as a command and control platform.
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #4 on Sept 8, 2005, 6:34pm »
Anyone manage to find this one?
Spot the Orion
When are you going to finish that Project Orion book Scott? Is it nearly done?
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #5 on Sept 8, 2005, 7:32pm »
Sept 8, 2005, 6:34pm, Good Guy wrote:
Anyone manage to find this one?
Spot the Orion
#3.
Quote:
When are you going to finish that Project Orion book Scott? Is it nearly done?
Quite some time. I started on it before hearing about Dyson's book; but when he and I started comparing notes and whatnot, it was clear that his was going to be the true historically valuable book, so I put it off. Same damned thing happened with my Dyna Soar book... Godwin beat me to the punch on it.
The "bomber" Orion is a small part at a stab at a slow restart. My Orion book, will, if ever completed, be somewhat like the Bomber book, with lots of reconstructions. Lots of 2-D drawings, probably a few 3-D. It'd be nice to get some 3-D animatiosn for a CD (showing stuff like how the breech of the pulse unit gun works... really quite clever and fool-resistant, once I figured it out), but it's far too far away to really consider.
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #6 on Sept 8, 2005, 7:33pm »
# 3 and #9, actually.
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #7 on Sept 8, 2005, 11:38pm »
Spot the not quite Orion:
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #8 on Sept 9, 2005, 10:57am »
norden,
There are eight (8) of them. And they're not "not quite." :)
They're taken from the "10M" thread in this forum. Or do you mean one of the others?
« Last Edit: Sept 9, 2005, 10:59am by selden » IP: Logged
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #9 on Sept 9, 2005, 12:08pm »
Just to the left of your row of Orion drawings.
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #10 on Sept 9, 2005, 3:22pm »
OBB:
Very, very interesting info. How does this relate to the legendary $50K Orion battleship model that Kennedy saw and rejected?
The secret of victory: "Get there fustest with the mostest" Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest, CSA
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #11 on Sept 9, 2005, 4:38pm »
Here's a peek at the sights from 100,000 n.m. orbit.
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #12 on Sept 9, 2005, 7:25pm »
Sept 9, 2005, 3:22pm, makikomi wrote:
How does this relate to the legendary $50K Orion battleship model that Kennedy saw and rejected?
Very indirectly. I just wrote a bit about that last night in the bomber Orion writeup. The bomber Orion was meant to blow the bejeebers out of ground targets; the battleship was both substantially larger and meant for a different role (blowing the bejeebers out of space-based targets). Sadly, there is less available on the battleship design than on the bomber. I'd give someone else's left nut to get a look at that model, but since it's packed in an unmarked crate right next to the Ark of the Covenant, I doubt I'll get the chance.
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #13 on Sept 9, 2005, 8:18pm »
There's a book cover with a publicity style photo of JFK in front of Rover hardware. So we can hope for a similar shot with the Orion model.
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #14 on Sept 9, 2005, 9:00pm »
Sept 9, 2005, 8:18pm, norden wrote:
There's a book cover with a publicity style photo of JFK in front of Rover hardware. So we can hope for a similar shot with the Orion model.
Rover wasn't classified like Orion. You might as well hope for a photo of JFK doing the horizontal bop with Marilyn Monroe.
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #15 on Sept 9, 2005, 10:05pm »
"JD: I'm a firm advocate of public involvement. If you look back at the Rover/NERVA period it was classified for eighteen years of its existence." - Dr. James Dewar
http://www.nuclearspace.com/A_viewithdewarFINpub02.htm
---
Another angle worth checking is the KGB archives, they dug up a lot of detail about some of our programs.
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #16 on Sept 9, 2005, 10:20pm »
Sept 9, 2005, 10:05pm, norden wrote:
If you look back at the Rover/NERVA period it was classified for eighteen years of its existence.
Rover got lots of press, including journal articles and open papers with lots of technical content. Orion, in particular militart Orion, was virtually restricted to mission delta V studies, extremely crude art and slight comment.
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #17 on Sept 9, 2005, 10:25pm »
I'm wondering about the Rover-JFK 'publicity' photo's history, they must have been at least potentially classified. It would be interesting to know what year they became public.
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #18 on Sept 10, 2005, 5:28am »
Have you got any idea how many segments the solids used to loft the 12 m warship would have had or what would have been used to loft the 8 m one?
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #19 on Sept 10, 2005, 8:40am »
Sept 10, 2005, 5:28am, best-on-net wrote:
Have you got any idea how many segments the solids used to loft the 12 m warship would have had
Offhand, no. The text does not describe, and the sketch included is pretty simplistic. However, total Orion *and* total liftoff weights are given, so individual SRB weight can be determiend. I ahve some stuff on Untied Tech and Thiokol 156" studies; workign out the number of segments woudl be possible.
Quote:
or what would have been used to loft the 8 m one?
"An 8-m nuclear-pulse-propulsion module with a thrust of 530,000 lb and a specific impulse of 2,750 sec could be employed for this mission. By boosting the system with a cluster of seven 120-in. solid propellant motors, a payload of 200,000 lb could be delivered to a 200-n mi circular orbit witha velocity reserve of 60,000 ft/sec."
United Tech studied may configurations of 120-inch solid clusters (the motors from the Titan III).
on them, indicate even LARGER craft were under study, from 87 to 130
feet 26.5 to 39.6 meter) in diameter, which would have had even greater
performance. From what I can tell, these larger craft were the ones that
Ted Taylor referred to as a "space battelship." "
Spot the Orion
« Thread Started on Sept 8, 2005, 5:51am »
Theres a 12-meter Orion (strategic weapon version) on this page...
Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #1 on Sept 8, 2005, 8:44am »
Got it.
Earth First
We'll strip mine the other planets later!
makikomi
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #2 on Sept 8, 2005, 4:06pm »
I got it too. Interesting. Also--what does "strategic weapon version" mean? Does this have anything to do with the Air Force's attempt to save the project by using it as a weapons delivery system, etc.? A long answer would be preferred over a short one.
The secret of victory: "Get there fustest with the mostest" Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest, CSA
-----------------
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #3 on Sept 8, 2005, 6:00pm »
Sept 8, 2005, 4:06pm, makikomi wrote:
what does "strategic weapon version" mean? .... A long answer would be preferred over a short one.
The long answer.... will be given in the book (possibly sooner if'n I decide to seel the "Space Bombers" section separately).
The short answer: seven 156" solid rockets loft a 12-meter Orion, which boosts itself to LEO, and then to a LEO/100,000 n.m transfer orbit, and then to a 100,000 n.m. circular orbit, where it sits until the Soviets get uppity. At which point it either launches weapons from that distance and serves as an unreachable launch platform, or boosts itself to hyperbolic flyby past the Russkies and drops several boomers worth or ordnance, zips back to cislunar space, and then turns around and does it again if needed. Crew of something like 20, bored off their asses for months on end. :P
Also considered: an 8-meter Orion that would sit in a silo until WWIII breaks out, at which point it would be lofted to space where it would serve as a command and control platform.
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #4 on Sept 8, 2005, 6:34pm »
Anyone manage to find this one?
Spot the Orion
When are you going to finish that Project Orion book Scott? Is it nearly done?
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #5 on Sept 8, 2005, 7:32pm »
Sept 8, 2005, 6:34pm, Good Guy wrote:
Anyone manage to find this one?
Spot the Orion
#3.
Quote:
When are you going to finish that Project Orion book Scott? Is it nearly done?
Quite some time. I started on it before hearing about Dyson's book; but when he and I started comparing notes and whatnot, it was clear that his was going to be the true historically valuable book, so I put it off. Same damned thing happened with my Dyna Soar book... Godwin beat me to the punch on it.
The "bomber" Orion is a small part at a stab at a slow restart. My Orion book, will, if ever completed, be somewhat like the Bomber book, with lots of reconstructions. Lots of 2-D drawings, probably a few 3-D. It'd be nice to get some 3-D animatiosn for a CD (showing stuff like how the breech of the pulse unit gun works... really quite clever and fool-resistant, once I figured it out), but it's far too far away to really consider.
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #6 on Sept 8, 2005, 7:33pm »
# 3 and #9, actually.
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #7 on Sept 8, 2005, 11:38pm »
Spot the not quite Orion:
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #8 on Sept 9, 2005, 10:57am »
norden,
There are eight (8) of them. And they're not "not quite." :)
They're taken from the "10M" thread in this forum. Or do you mean one of the others?
« Last Edit: Sept 9, 2005, 10:59am by selden » IP: Logged
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #9 on Sept 9, 2005, 12:08pm »
Just to the left of your row of Orion drawings.
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #10 on Sept 9, 2005, 3:22pm »
OBB:
Very, very interesting info. How does this relate to the legendary $50K Orion battleship model that Kennedy saw and rejected?
The secret of victory: "Get there fustest with the mostest" Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest, CSA
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #11 on Sept 9, 2005, 4:38pm »
Here's a peek at the sights from 100,000 n.m. orbit.
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #12 on Sept 9, 2005, 7:25pm »
Sept 9, 2005, 3:22pm, makikomi wrote:
How does this relate to the legendary $50K Orion battleship model that Kennedy saw and rejected?
Very indirectly. I just wrote a bit about that last night in the bomber Orion writeup. The bomber Orion was meant to blow the bejeebers out of ground targets; the battleship was both substantially larger and meant for a different role (blowing the bejeebers out of space-based targets). Sadly, there is less available on the battleship design than on the bomber. I'd give someone else's left nut to get a look at that model, but since it's packed in an unmarked crate right next to the Ark of the Covenant, I doubt I'll get the chance.
norden
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #13 on Sept 9, 2005, 8:18pm »
There's a book cover with a publicity style photo of JFK in front of Rover hardware. So we can hope for a similar shot with the Orion model.
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #14 on Sept 9, 2005, 9:00pm »
Sept 9, 2005, 8:18pm, norden wrote:
There's a book cover with a publicity style photo of JFK in front of Rover hardware. So we can hope for a similar shot with the Orion model.
Rover wasn't classified like Orion. You might as well hope for a photo of JFK doing the horizontal bop with Marilyn Monroe.
norden
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #15 on Sept 9, 2005, 10:05pm »
"JD: I'm a firm advocate of public involvement. If you look back at the Rover/NERVA period it was classified for eighteen years of its existence." - Dr. James Dewar
http://www.nuclearspace.com/A_viewithdewarFINpub02.htm
---
Another angle worth checking is the KGB archives, they dug up a lot of detail about some of our programs.
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #16 on Sept 9, 2005, 10:20pm »
Sept 9, 2005, 10:05pm, norden wrote:
If you look back at the Rover/NERVA period it was classified for eighteen years of its existence.
Rover got lots of press, including journal articles and open papers with lots of technical content. Orion, in particular militart Orion, was virtually restricted to mission delta V studies, extremely crude art and slight comment.
norden
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #17 on Sept 9, 2005, 10:25pm »
I'm wondering about the Rover-JFK 'publicity' photo's history, they must have been at least potentially classified. It would be interesting to know what year they became public.
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #18 on Sept 10, 2005, 5:28am »
Have you got any idea how many segments the solids used to loft the 12 m warship would have had or what would have been used to loft the 8 m one?
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Re: Spot the Orion
« Reply #19 on Sept 10, 2005, 8:40am »
Sept 10, 2005, 5:28am, best-on-net wrote:
Have you got any idea how many segments the solids used to loft the 12 m warship would have had
Offhand, no. The text does not describe, and the sketch included is pretty simplistic. However, total Orion *and* total liftoff weights are given, so individual SRB weight can be determiend. I ahve some stuff on Untied Tech and Thiokol 156" studies; workign out the number of segments woudl be possible.
Quote:
or what would have been used to loft the 8 m one?
"An 8-m nuclear-pulse-propulsion module with a thrust of 530,000 lb and a specific impulse of 2,750 sec could be employed for this mission. By boosting the system with a cluster of seven 120-in. solid propellant motors, a payload of 200,000 lb could be delivered to a 200-n mi circular orbit witha velocity reserve of 60,000 ft/sec."
United Tech studied may configurations of 120-inch solid clusters (the motors from the Titan III).
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